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==About Nahuatl spelling==
I write better in English, but will attempt to translate to Spanish and Nahuatl soon. --Pablo/Paul
> Anyway '''''who''''' decided it?
That's a good question, I can't see where amd by who the 'nawatl' spelling was officially decided. --[[User:Mixcoatl|Mixcoatl]] 21:59, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Nahuatl orthography still hasn't found a good standardization, mainly because
most people don't realize all the contrasts that should be shown.
Furthermore, different forms of Nahuatl have slightly different phonology.
One suggestion is currently at [[User talk:Netza]]. I see only one major problem with
Carochi's system: what happens when a long vowel precedes aspiration (I assume saltillo means aspiration here), as in ''pähtli'' (medicine)? For that reason, and because aspiration behaves like syllable-final consonants, I recommend writing an 'h' or a 'j' for aspiration.
: There are, definitely, no glottalized long vowels in Nahuatl. The /a/ vowel in ''pahtli'' (medicine) is well attested as short (''pätli'' = something melted/dissolved, lacks glottal stop; ''pähtli'' is morphophonemically impossible in Nahuatl). Nevertheless, this is not to imply that specifying aspiration/glottal-stop as a diacritic on a vowel (as Carochi suggests) is "better" than specifying it as a separate consonant (as you recommend, but using <h> instead of <j>). Some Nahuatl scholars, such as Karttunen, recommend the latter on the grounds that it better reflects the underlying structure of the language. '''However''', other Nahuatl scholars recommend the former on the ''exact'' same grounds. --Danakil
: (es:) Definitivamente, en Náhuatl no hay vocales largas glotalizadas. La vocal /a/ en ''pahtli'' (medicina) está bastante atestigüada como corta (''pätli'' = algo derretido/disuelto, no lleva paro glotal; ''pähtli'' es morfofonémicamente imposible en Náhuatl). Sin embargo, esto no quiere decir que la especificación de la aspiración/paro-glotal mediante un diacrítico sobre vocal (como Carochi sugiere) es "mejor" que la especificación mediante una consonante separada (como recomiendas, pero utilizando <h> en vez de <j>). Algunos estudiosos del Náhuatl, como Karttunen, recomiendan el uso de la consonante argumentando que así se refleja mejor la estructura subyacente del lenguaje. '''Sin embargo''', otros estudiosos recomiendan el uso del diacrítico basándose en ''precisamente'' el mismo argumento. --Danakil
Here are general requirements I recommend for any writing in Nahuatl:
# Please distinguish between short and long vowels! This can be done in a number of ways, most of which are probably acceptable:
: Totally agree. --Danakil
: (es:) Totalmente de acuerdo. --Danakil
#* Place a macron over long vowels, viz: N&#257;watl. This is the best looking, as macrons traditionally mark long vowels. However, it is hard to typeset on any computer I've seen, so is inappropriate for (among other things) Wikis.
#* Place some other kind of mark over long vowels, viz: Näwatl or Nàwatl. This is easier to typeset on most computers, especially Mexican computers. This is a good solution.
#* Place an acute accent over long vowels, viz Náwatl. This is almost as good, except that I've met native speakers of Nahuatl who think short vowels sound more like they have an accent. So this is not quite as good as the other answers.
#* Place a colon immediately after a long vowel, viz Na:watl. This is another good solution.
#* Write two of the long vowel, viz Naawatl. This is a '''bad''' solution, because doubled vowels contrast against long vowels. The first part of tlaalaxtik (''está liso'') is not like the first part of tlälli (''tierra'')
# I recommend never to use the word ''saltillo'' because it is used by some people to mean glottal stop, and by others to mean syllable-final aspiration.
# Syllable-final aspiration is just that. It may affect the sound of the preceding vowel, but it acts just like any other syllable-final consonant, and should be marked with either an 'h' or a 'j' depending on your preference.
# Word-final aspiration is extremely confusing in Huasteca Nahuatl (and possibly in other Nahuatl languages). I do not have a good answer for how to represent it, quite yet.
I agree that a W should be used instead of an HU (as in classical orthography), trying to keep two letters where one is sufficient as well as more logical and efficient is just trying to keep a Hispanicized orthography where it doesn't really suit the language well. The same goes for using a J instead of an H. to mark aspirants. I would suggest replacing CH with TX (as it is more logical), but I don't know how well received that would be.
: but there are alternatives to w: u and v. u is workable because there is no need for a /u/ vowel graph, as it is always an allophone of phonemic /o/. --Danakil
: (es:) pero hay alternativas a w: u y v. u es posible ya que no hay necesidad de un grafo vocálico para /u/, ya que este sonido es siempre un alófono del phonema /o/. --Danakil
Also, I think that macrons are the best idea for long vowels. If we *do* decide to use macrons, you don't have to worry about the keyboard problem because I can create a Windows keyboard layout for the chosen orthography free-of-charge.
A colon is *not* a good idea, because it would conflict with punctuation and be very confusing because anybody trying to read Nahuatl is most likely either expecting some sort of diacritic above long vowels rather than colons after them.
What exactly is wrong with using an H for word-final aspiration if one uses it for syllable-final aspiration?
Best wishes, [[:en:User:Node_ue|Node]]
:Niltze Node! Welcome to Wikipedia in Nahuatl. Thanks for your suggestions. We really need long discussions to fix, in the better possible way, some of the current drawbacks of Nahuatl as a written language and it is good having different kinds of opinion on the many topics about it.
:You mention the need to make distinctions between long and short vowels in Nahuatl. I agree that vowel length is a relevant feature of the language but I think we really need the opinion of fluent Nahuatl speakers on the matter. Diacritics are not usually welcome in general if the written language can do well without them: there are many cases of this; for example, in Amharic (a thoroughly written language of Ethiopia since the 19th century) they use double consonants in speech in a way that changes meaning of the words and situations, but double consonants never appear in the written language; in Arabic, vowels are necessary in spoken language but they are scarcely represented (generally they are used only in the Koran and dictionaries); in Spanish (my mother tongue) stress is a relevant feature but a vast quantity of Spanish-speakers can do quite well without using it when writing and the message is 99.9% perfectly conveyed... There are more cases like this.
:Anyway, I am not against using some kind of diacritic to mark vowel length, but I think we should listen to the points of view of as many Nahuatl-speakers as possible before settling any general rule. They are the ones who should decide if it is worth doing or it is not. - [[User:Piolinfax|Tochpapalotl (Piolinfax)]] 10:59, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that a new letter be invented and used for the "tl"
sound, so that people will no longer be tempted to pronounce this sound like the tl
in "turtle". I think that the misconception among both english and spanish speakers that nahuatl words are to be pronounced this way is unfortunate and that it should be countered before it become even deeper rooted among the many well meaning people who are learning nahuatl. Elias Huitzilyn Huitzilyn@hotmail.com
Noihuan nicnomachtica nahuatl ihuan niquintemoa occenquintin tlacah aquique quinequih quiyeyecoasque nahuatl nohuan. Tla aca cacicamati inin ma nechtitlani netitlanilistli nican Huitzilyn@hotmail.com
*Navajo uses TŁ (lowercase tł) for that sound (or at least for a similar one). However, in the Navajo Nation people who don't know any navajo commonly write placenames with an l instead of ł, so it ends up getting pronounced like l.
Naja nicnequi nicmartiz maquinohn tlayakanan icpanin tlin ninnekin ninchihuasque. Naja ta ihcuan nitzitzinin nihueli nan tlahtohli tlin otechcahuilitehquen tohtahnhuan.
tla itlan nihueliz ni mechpalehuiz, za nan nechtlahcuilohuilican. gelacio_mar@yahoo.com.mx
gelacio lazaro martinez
I think we should decide now which spelling we are going to use. We have 84 pages now, if we have 100 the Nahuatl Wikipedia will be listed on the English Wikipedia main page at 'Wikipedias with over 100 articles', it's best to have a standard spelling then.
My vote goes for the 'classical' Nahuatl spelling. Perhaps it has some illogical parts, but still it's the most used. It is also used in Nahuatl loan words in other languages (in almost all languages it's Mexico and not ''Mexiko'', chocolate and not ''txoclate'' and Quetzalcoatl and not ''Kwetsalkoatl''.
Another idea may be having two Nahuatl Wikipedias, a ''Nahuatl Huiquipedia'' and a ''Nawatl Wikipedia''.--[[User:Mixcoatl|Mixcoatl]] 11:58, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It has already been decided. The policy is now to use Yankwik Nawa:tl orthography instead of Nahuatl Classica. It follows the basic principle of 1 sound = 1 letter:
*''sh'' -> '''x''' (this is already in Nahuatl Classica, but some people don't use it)
*''ch'' -> '''tx'''
*''qu'' -> '''k'''
*''ci/e'' -> '''si/e'''
*''ca/co/cu/c'' -> '''ka/ko/ku/k'''
*''cua/cui/cue/cuo'' -> ''kwa/kwi/kwe/kwo''
*''coa'' -> ''kwa''
*''long vowels/vocales largas/iseltikakizweyakeh'': '''vowel/vocal/iseltikakiztl + :'''
*''j'' -> '''h'''
*''hu'' -> '''w'''
*As far as ''tl'', this is left unresolved in Yankwik Nawa:tl, and that is a decision we must make now. The choices are: '''tλ''', '''tl''' (same as classical orthography), '''tĺ''', '''tļ''', '''tŀ''', '''tł''', '''ƛ''', or '''λ̷'''.
My vote would be for '''λ̷''', because it is a single letter (unlike all others except ƛ), and because it can be capitalised (ƛ cannot); when capitalised it looks like '''Λ̷'''. However, this might not be such a good solution because it is probably better to limit it to ASCII. Another option is '''tkl''' or '''tlx''', however these are inaccurate phonetically. Probably the best option is '''tλ''' because even though the second character isn't ASCII, it can be typed easily using HTML character entities. Another possibility is using ''just'' '''λ'''. If we really need an ASCII solution, we can use something similar to λ instead of λ itself, for example '''v''' (capital λ upside down looks like a V).
So my vote is for either '''tl''' or '''v'''.
--[[User:Node ue|Node ue]] 01:51, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
::Node Ue, you said: "It has already been decided. The policy is now to use Yankwik Nawa:tl orthography instead of Nahuatl Classica." Yankwik Nawa:tl is a clear system but may be not quite good to reflect the huge variety of dialectal Nahuatl, and Nahuatl is not yet an engineered language like many standarized ones previously were. Anyway '''''who''''' decided it? -[[User:Piolinfax|[[User:Piolinfax|Tochpapalotl]] ([[User talk:Piolinfax|Piolinfax]])]] 11:40, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::I still can't totally understand what the problem with the spelling '''tl''' is. Of course it doesn't show a "real pronounciation" but the same happens with the spelling in most of the known languages: only one example(between several probable hundreds); does "ch" sound in Italian, English, Spanish or French like the addition of the typical sound of "c+h" in those languages? No. If I want to learn Welsh and I come across the spelling "ll", I may think that it is pronounced like an "l", like an Spanish "ll", etc. but unless I hear to people pronouncing it (on tapes or otherwise) or I can understand the phonetical guiding from my learning source I shouldn't assume any pronounciation guided by the mere look of it. The same should happen to anyone trying to learn Nahuatl: one should be aware that spelling is just a convention. Trying to change such a <u>stable, easy and traditional</u> option as '''tl''' on the phonetic grounds that it is misleading seems to me a little too much. Should we complain about the misleading (for us) spelling of some Inupiaq sounds? What about the misleading English spelling '''gh''' or '''oo'''. Is misleading that in Polish '''rz''' and '''ż''' are pronounced the same way? Historical reasosns are important. The spelling '''tl'''happens to be one of the only spellings that seems to have been kept in most of the classical and current written Nahuatl texts (except in many linguistic studies were several phonetic scripts are used) virtually untouched. -[[User:Piolinfax|[[User:Piolinfax|Tochpapalotl]] ([[User talk:Piolinfax|Piolinfax]])]] 19:59, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)